"Where is the evidence that settlement of the issue was futile? I remember reading that the court accepted Battistelli's written police report over the verbal interviews provided by visitors to the cottage."

The face-to-face was futile as all parties maintained their original claims.

"That uncorroborated news report is likely the source of this claim that Luca saw Battistelli enter the room.There are no primary documents attached" At that time the news were full of this contradiction and the futile face-to-face to resolve it. For me it's enough proof that the three ind...

"'Saying so' ain't 'doing so', especially not in the way you and Thoughtful are banging on about. "

My post was a simple answer to a simple question.

"Did anyone corroborate Luca's claim that Battistelli entered Meredith's room?" In the same hearing Paola Grande stated (and later maintained in the face-to-face) that she had heard Battistelli say so. "Sono rimasti, invece, sostanzialmente sulle loro posizioni i tre testimoni che ier...

"Amanda was having two "strange men" over at the cottage to spend the night, while Meredith had been home alone. I think the three suspects had anticipated Meredith's disapproval, and so had snuck* into the cottage," Why would they go into the cottage secretly with Rudy? Especial...

"Would Rudy's lawyers really discourage any further revelations as to the detail of what happened that night? Rudy already knows that we know and the court knows that he has lied and that his situation can't be any worse. Why not reveal a few more honest details if they make the 'others' look w...

"at 20 years of age one does not forget such things'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP71pqgh1oc

"Her client most probably did not read the appeal."

Well, he couldn't even remember if he had sex or watched a Naruto cartoon that night.

The Massei report (Italian too) refers to Sollecito's house as Garibaldi 30 several times. It is, however, too close to the cottage, too far from Rudy and Micheli gives Garibaldi 110 and to me that seems more adequate.

Which one is the correct?

"you will find here a bit of the missing part when the guy asks if they cut themselves etc." Thank you. (Meanwhile I corrected the lLA7 link as it was outdated.) You see my point, don't you. I imagine that Raffaele almost responded automatically "No, it is not their blood" but st...

Popper wrote: "It is referred to the call RS made to the police 112 number, which can be found in this link and in the "in their own words" section." I found, that it is actually edited from the two calls Raffaele made to the carabinieri. The LA7 video gave some more parts of it....

Ah, I'm supposed to fall on my sword under the weight of this argument against the 3 strikes law of California.

"which btw were pretty annoying to read at times as they are written in typical Bruce fashion and you have to wonder if the defense actually chose to explain things as he does"

There was a reason that the family hired Ted Simon as a lawyer instead of Bruce.

OK, many posters are not interested in this off topic debate on 3 strikes laws and they are right. It shouldn't be done here. So I won't continue it either. As a closing argument I repeat here the words of Mike Reynolds with which I fully agree: Facts are facts. For every 1000 people there will be a...

"In 1962 there were 10 executions in California. One in 1963. One in 1967."

Matching perfectly the beginning of the long years of continuous increase in the number of murders.

"what you are essentially saying is that these 3000 people sitting in jail equates to 20,000+ murders that never happened because these 'specific' people are in jail. 20,000 (without the '+') divided by 3000 = about 5 7/8....which means you are saying that these are not people locked up for ste...

"Where on Earth do you get that 20,000+ figure from?" Look at the numbers. 1993: 4096 murders. The estimated number for the 15 years of 1994-2008 is 15*4096=61440 murders. The actual number of murders in the same 15 year period is 37774 murders. I attribute the large part of the difference...

"Then if they 'all' have their limits, then surely it is better to have the ones that cause the least harm" Yes. But to whom? One choice is the 20.000+ would-have-been murder victims who have stayed alive in California since 1994. The other choice is the 3000 3-strikers sitting in jail, mo...

"And murders were still committed."

Yes, there were crimes at all times, no matter how severe was the punishment. So severity has its limits.
But so have other proposed and used more lenient or defensive means like e.g. education.

"it must be something 'else' at play and it may be that that something 'else' that is also a major factor in reducing the overall crime rate" CO2 emission must be a strong contender. "murder is already a capital crime without the three strikes law and murderers go to jail for life (or...

I don't want to be off topic, even this was too much. "when I looked at the Italian crime stats a while back, the numbers of murders are so low" Well, you don't have to go to Italy, Iowa also will do. But avoid Washington DC: :D And we know that Italian jails are full of innocent people be...

"Compared to 1960s, when there was a different generation"

Yes, and there was a working death penalty at hand.

"Murder has been "fairly stable" in California in absolute numbers (~3k/yr, with std variation) since the mid-1970s, which is interesting in itself, and also because the population has almost doubled."

That's not true!

Number of murders in California:

"I don't see these graphs there: am I missing them?"

There are only numbers there. I made the graphs in Excel from those numbers.

"Perhaps I would understand better if you linked to the sources. I can't make sense of a graph which compares two trends on one line: I am not very numerate." United States: Uniform Crime Report -- State Statistics from 1960 - 2008 http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/ (Though I don't think...

"Careful with reading the stats."

OK.
Let's stick to sentimental prisoner's stories. They are more reliable.

"What are the scales on the y axis? they do not seem to be the same?" The ratio of Calif crime rate to US crime rate. Before the 3 strikes law Calif was leading the US by 20%, after 5 years it was 10% behind. A change of 30% in five years in the same general society. The real change is eve...

"You cannot say it works without a great deal more information. "

I compared the California crime rate to the whole US crime rate.

"Proposition 184, also known as the Three Strikes Initiative, was on the November 8, 1994 ballot in California

Yes: 5,906,268 (71.8%)
No: 2,314,548 (28.2%) "

And it works.

California crime:

Skep wrote: "I am willing to bet that AB's one and only source for this is Chris Mellas. It contains several unsupported allegations, all of which lead to a totally unsupported and even ludicrous conclusion: that it is very likely the computer holds evidence that could help clear Amanda Knox.&q...

SomeAlibi wrote: "The defence's case is that Amanda's computer would have had lots of happy smiley pictures of her and Meredith on it. This is about 0.001% relevant to the case and wouldn't change the evidence on which guilt has been predicated." The Knox defence no longer seems to be inte...

"Show me a creditable source describing how the drives were destroyed and we can move forward with a dialogue about it." Massei Report (p21): "an expert report on the computers of the accused was requested, the memories of which were found to have been damaged at the time of the analy...

"I think this highlights my point perfectly. Anne Bremner writes in an article that the hard drives were fried and she is absolutely creditable and unbiased. That lays the ground work for the whole US media to pick it up and all of a sudden it's one of those phrases we all use "well the in...

"We all have a strong desire for a coherent and convincing narrative" Yes, it may happen that we'll never have one. I remember the Hans Reiser case. There was no body, few evidence, though from the beginning more than in the Scott Peterson case. He was convicted for first degree murder and...

I found it on the Anne Bremner site.
But it may be at the FOA site, too, as I remember Charlie Wilkes telling basically the same story.

"Is it stated anywhere specifically that those that were examining the hard drives fried them? " Anne Bremner states that specifically. "Another incredible story surrounds the way investigators handled the computer hard drives they took into evidence. These drives were removed from co...

Rose's quoted paragraph contains basically fair corrections, Machine, that came out during the trial, with the possible exception of what she wrote about Filomena's testimony which I don't know in detail. As for professing undecidedness, I agree, Rose was clearly not sitting on the fence when she ca...

"I am just wondering how you can fry 3 in the same investigation?"

A little "abuse of power" and there you are.

"No, nothing in Massei about that. Meredith said to Robin she was tired and we have no information on the frequency of her computer use so I don't think we could draw any conclusions even if we knew she did or didn't use it personally speaking" I still think that this information (includi...

"So have the police said what went 'wrong' when they tried to look for evidence on the computers and the hard disks were damaged?" They haven't said anything publicly and from their silence I guess that they indeed screwed them up. :D Amanda's laptop is not much interesting from the point ...

I think Massei is completely right (p85) on the mop: "Fetching the mop to dry the floor also seems to be a scarcely credible action: at Raffaele Sollecito’s there was someone attending to the cleaning; it is therefore considered that everything needed to clean up some water was already there, s...

SomeAlibi wrote:
"The cleaning lady who spotted the bucket on the 5th of November at Raffaele's flat. When did she stop working for him? The 5th of November - he fired her that day!"

That's new for me. Not beacuse he was arrested next day?
Where is this news from?

Michael wrote: "Yes, but the only time we know that either of them were actually questioned about the mop was when Amanda was on the stand." She talked about it in her Nov2 questioning and Raffaele on Nov 5. http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=255&start=3000#p55423...

"The Golden Shit - brought to the police's attention by Amanda and Raffaele" I also think it was some kind of "captatio benevolentiae". The toilet was not properly flushed that's true. But I don't believe the shit was resting there for twelwe hours and then after one hour it slip...

I always wanted to know what Raffaele had said about that knife. Did he admit at all that it was his or belonged to the appartmant. Now I found in the Nov 17 2007 la Repubblica (through his family lawyer Tiziano): http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/2007/11/17/quel-coltello-l...

Catnip quoted:
"spends hours reading through the Italian penal code"

Second-guessing defense strategy?

Luminol experiments
http://www.forensictv.net/Downloads/lum ... _et_al.pdf

"Thanks, bolint, so the foot print is on the left?"

The whole is the partial footprint of the right foot. Top left is the toe.

"Can the luminol treatment show up anything like 'swirly mop washing up floor marks' in the hallway? "

"Talking of mops - is the mop in question the one that is still visible outside the cottage on google earth?" No. That's another one. Charlie Wilkes published this picture from the cottage, according to file name it was taken on Dec 18: (Did the police not care about it until Dec 18?) mop_...

This is my primary source collection on the Mop utterances: Amanda Nov 2 questioning: "Verso le 11,30 di questa mattina, dopo essere tornata a casa per lavarmi e cambiarmi, ho preso il lavapavimenti situato dentro un ripostiglio e sono uscita per andare a casa del mio ragazzo e pulirgli la came...

Fiona wrote:
"Why would they expect the police to arrive before an ordinary level of wetness had dried up?"

This brings up Amanda's cryptic phrase on the use of the hair drier: "obviously to dry my hair"

Arrival time of Postal Police reloaded. I accept the Sollecito defence's interpretation of the images as presented in the file "postale.pdf" discussed a number times. The only thing unexplained: how the pedestrian carabinieri got there if the car is the first patrol car. But he may have g...

In the Raffaele video it is interesting to watch his bathroom at about 14:37 (time stamp, not playing time). Looks just like the bathroom in the cottage. I don't know what "Amanda did not like" in it so that she had to go over to take a shower. The broken pipe is also interesting at around...

Charlie Wilkes:
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/sollecito_apartment.mp4

Michael on the appeal trial:
"it's only going to last seven days"

How do we know that?

Thanks, Catnip

Brooktrout wrote: "1.) The strongest evidence, the evidence which will be most difficult for the defense to even approach." The bra clasp and the accusation of Lumumba (on top of other lies). Not that they won't approach them. :D "2.) The evidence, drawn from the motivations report, t...

Catnip, My problem is not the absent or away or left, all are good. My problem is which one is the correct?: "that she left" or "if she left" About what has Raffaele strong doubts: - if she tells the truth that the pub was closed or - if she left ? That's what I don't understand ...

The English translation of Raffaele's diary contains several errors resulting in mysterious interpretations. For example: Ah, dimenticavo, Amanda ha aperto la casa con le chiavi " cosa che mi hanno ripetutamente chiesto visto che lei mi aveva detto che aveva trovato la porta di ingresso spalanc...

Moodstream, how would you explain this? From Raffaele's diary: "Mi ricordo che era giovedì, quindi Amanda doveva andare al pub dove lavora di solito, ma non mi ricordo quanto tempo si è assentata e ricordo che successivamente mi aveva detto che il pub era chiuso (ho dei forti dubbi riguardo al ...

moodstream wrote: As to the question above. My answer is that when she spoke, that was her opinion. It may have been the longest day of her life, but her recollection does not have to be perfect. Maybe she is even correct. But if she is or is not, she is giving her own subjective recollection. The s...

Candace also deserves a Beatles song:

Paperback writer
"Dear Sir or Madam, will you read my book?
It took me years to write, will you take a look?"

moodstream wrote: "My reading of this document says the postal police arrived shortly before 1pm. The postal police believed they arrived about 12:30. However, the court understands the 12:30 time to be incorrect. The correct time of arrival is shortly before 1pm." Yes. The prosecutors arg...

The etymology dictionary on the origin of the word:

Skep wrote: " I mentioned the term last night to an incoming freshman at the University of Washington who went through orientation yesterday. She said she had in fact never heard it until yesterday" Be prepared for "informatician" or "informaticist". http://en.wiktionar...

Some typos in the Massei Report:

p26 Fiammetta is called Elisabetta, also in the Italian p13 (it may be correct, but strange )

p114 TOD given as november 2 23:00pm, also wrong in the Italian p108

p319 23:41 Time of Old Sollecito's SMS instead of 23.14, also wrong in the Italian p342

Chris C wrote:


"I have not...to do with you crafty lawyars, neythar care I for the lawe, but I know what I wyll do." (Francis Drake)

Some typos in the Massei Report:

p26 Fiammetta called Elisabetta, also in the Italian p13 (it may be correct, but strange )

p114 TOD november 2 23:00pm, also wrong in the Italian p108

p319 23:41 Time of Old Sollecito's SMS instead of 23.14, also wrong in the Italian p342

Justinian's theory is that only those are able to scream who have no reason to do so.

"Is this title taken from the original or has this been added by Bruce?"

The title of the web page

Fly By Night wrote: "Amanda Knox, herself, heard the scream and provided evidence to the court saying that she had!" Yes, you are the winner. That's what I thought of. The scream was so loud that she had to cover her ears. And this witness came forward only 4 days after the crime to volunt...

"In my opinion, the scream wasn't heard and didn't exist."

A reliable witness heard it.

"To be fair in hindsight it would have been best if the college declared the Friday a closed day"

But then Thursday would step in as an unofficial day off.

Fiona wrote: "What we are asked to believe is that she and RS were so concerned they tried to break down the door: that they phoned two people who advised they call the police: and that in the course of a few minutes and in face of that advice they suddenly relaxed? " A little earlier ther...

Hammerite wrote: No I did not misunderstand what Bruce was claiming and post the following for you to make up your own minds on whether 1) Hammerit misunderstood or 2) Bruce set out to deceive his readers. Luckily I recorded the text at 12.02 pm Wednesday 11 August 2010 from the IIP site and this is...

"That paragraph is clearly discussing a prior relationship among the attackers. And the last sentence in that paragraph is clearly saying that there was no prior relationship because, in fact, they had never met one another. To suggest that it implies anything else is either an insult to those ...

"I dont know maybe you read it wrong or maybe i read it wrong."

Hammerite understoood "they never met before the murder" as "they had never met before the murder", that is the misunderstanding.

"I thought because Nov 1st was a holiday and it fell on a thursday that year, that the university was taking a long holiday." That's happened. But the English girls did not know it as even All Saints is not a holiday in England. "Plus there was that fair in Perugia." That fair is...

"Just out of curiousity, isn't Nov. 2 a holiday "

No.
All Saints (Nov 1) is a public holiday observed by the state and all institutions.
Nov 2 is the Day of the Dead but it is not a public holiday.

fine wrote:
" But Amanda was asleep that night (if innocent) and she'd only known the guy for a week, reason enough I think to be very worried to learn about traces of Meredith on the knife blade."

But at that time Amanda still had the impression that Lumumba was the murderer.

"Just making sure we were on the same page. I do believe Amanda also had similar results of her attempts to contact Meredith following her conversation with Filomena." Both Amanda and Filomena called each of Meredith's phones, five calls in total as Amanda called the English phone twice. &...

"She = Filomena, not Amanda."

Yes I quoted Filomena.
http://qn.quotidiano.net/2009/02/07/149 ... dith.shtml

"Filomena claimed she made a call to Meredith's phone after speaking with Amanda" Yes. In her witness testimony she said that she immediately tried to call Meredith's both phones, one of them rang but was not answered, the other was turned off. ("Provai subito a chiamare Meredith. Uno...

Terence wrote: "The second ringing was probably Amanda again, because she reportedly rang this phone twice and the other once..." I don't think so for several reasons: - Amanda said that the second call to the English phone didn't ring, an English voice said that it was out of service. - I...

More on the phones... The unrelated prank call was at about 10PM. The police went there that night to investigate. It would be good to know when they went there, how long they stayed there and exactly where their car was parking, because at least that time could be excluded as possible time for thro...

Macport wrote: "If she has no clean clothes at RS's, they have been dating only a few days, she has to get to the cottage before day break" That's what I think, too. The 5:32 and on activity at Raffaele's supports something like that. "Washing machine running at cottage that morning b...

" Had Amanda not phoned the (English) phone then Fiammetta would not have heard it ring and its discovery may have been much later."

Fiammetta heard a previous ringing. When Amanda called the phone was already on the kitchen table.

"The divine justice is the hoax-telephone-call to Ms. Elisabetta - about a bomb in her house."

Yes, it's a fantastic coincidence. It was about 10PM.

"The change of clothes she is seen in the next day is odd for her - hiking boots and a white skirt, correct?" Maybe. Raffaele, who did not remember what she had worn the night before, still felt necessary to attribute the hiking boots next day as "usual". But no evidence for miss...

" This prevented a possible earlier 'raising of the alarm' before the clean up was completed/started/interrupted."

I don't think they were planning ahead so much. They had no time.

Macport wrote: "The clothing AK was wearing the night of the murder were never seen again, correct? That implies blood." Even that is not clear what she wore. We have only her words and two versions of Raffaele (1 - jeans (Nov 5), 2 - don't remember (Diary)) I don't think that the jeans di...

Terence wrote:
"the two cellphones that were tossed into bushes. Why did they leave them on?"

Only one of them (the English phone) was on when they found them. First they found the Italian one that was off.

TomM on CDV:
"Well, he should have."

I don't think so. He is only one of her lawyers. I think the chief lawyer is Ghirga.

Bongiorno after one of the trials of Andreotti:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnZ9dBjSolA

"Might it be mafia members "spilling the beans"? "

Yes. I wanted to know why was the trial held in Perugia? The journalist was killed in Rome.

Yummi wrote:
"The court of Perugia didn't believe him."

Why was the Andreotti trial in Perugia?

" can see with their own eyes what a group effort the translation was and how the process worked."

I know without seeing. It is not about this translation (at least my post).
This is a theoretical debate on multiple independent sequential translations.

from the Nazione article linked by Clander: "Esclusi i penalisti perché tutti incompatibili, a presiedere la Corte d’assise d’appello dovrebbe essere il presidente della sezione civile, Sergio Matteini Chiari." Interesting. All criminal judges were incompatible so the president of the a ci...

"The translators did not use Babelfish....they used their brains....BIG DIFFERENCE."

Sure. But even if four different human translators did the four translation phases, the text would have been degraded inevitably. (Clearly not to the extent of Babelfish's damage).

"Judge Sergio Matteini Chiari"

Is he related to Claudia Matteini?

SomeAlibi wrote: "I have to say I think Thoughtful quite clearly raised a generic concern about translations in general but probably inadvertantly did so in a bad context. It definitely had nothing to do with the PMF translation itself but a general problem of double translation. I, in fact, sa...

Thanks for the translation, immense work well done.
Three cheers for for all the translators and editors!

It is interesting to see some familiar arguments here: http://freereiser.wordpress.com/ "We hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving! While you were enjoying meals with your families, a talented software developer sat in an Alameda County jail unfairly awaiting trial for the murder of his wife. W...

KFOA news: Prominent "Friends of Anne" activist Charlie Wilkes commented on the recent surge of false charges against Anne: - The police investigation was bungled from the beginning. There was no lawyer present in her car and she was hit in the head. The police is unable to locate the empt...

"as she sat in her disabled car, which she said was parked."

""Everyone had one cocktail before dinner," and drank "under two glasses of wine each" with the meal."

Quite credible.

The long hands of Mignini...
And sloppy police work, of course.

"a head scan showed fluid in her brain"

No big surprise here

SomeAlibi wrote: "Is that a closed door or is it just the light coming through the window bouncing off the double door frame of Amanda and Meredith's rooms?" I think it is a closed door. The upper part is a reflection of the light coming through the terrace door. Judged by the lower part o...

Closer pictures of the two lamps now on the desk at a later inspection, I guess Dec 18: Meredith's lamp: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?album_id=21&image_id=1674 Amanda's lamp: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.php?album_id=21&...

SomeAlibi wrote: "with the angle-poise head having been tilted all the way back so we can see quite clearly the white of the bulb facing us. We can therefore see it has been positioned to illuminate the entirety of floor in front of it. No other usage possibly follows." But this earlier im...

"Possibly all used up and then thrown away (the bottle). We don't know."

Sure. But in any case it is relevant if it existed.

stilicho wrote (on th lamp): "That picture is not how the crowd at the cottage on 02 NOV 2007 saw it" I agree. All the pictures with markers placed were taken in the evening by that time quite a lot of people had gone through the door. The first pictures (shortly after 15:00) were taken by...

"Did she resume her duties as Raffaele's housecleaner after delivering her child?"

I don't think so.
She was working at Quintavalle's shop.
Raffaele had another maid who also testifed at the trial.

" because it doesn't prove anything except that RS bought bleach" But if it is not the one of the two bottles of bleach found under the sink then where is this new bleach? So it is clearly relevant and should be at least dismissed if it had been used by the prosecutors. But I don't find an...

On the date of Rudy's departure: - When applying for asylum in Germany about Nov 13 Rudy claimed that he had been in Germany since Nov 2 - Rudy was surely in Perugia on Nov 3 as he was in an Internet point there - While in that internet point he contacted some of his friends telling them that he was...

two things concerning bleach: - It seems to be forgotten that the same Chiriboga was Sollecito's previous maid (till sometime in September) who testified about the bleach bottles found at his place. - The Nov 4 bleach receipt is most likely unfounded. No trace of it in Massei though it would be clea...

thoughtful wrote: " I still think it would be very strange that none of Amanda, Raffaele, Filomena and her three friends and the two postal policemen ever saw it. " Indeed, eight people were inspecting the door and none of them found it strange. But I don't believe in the whipback theory. ...

Skep wrote:
"Actually, the text provides each Italian page break like this: [148] text text text [149] text text text and so on."

That's great and enough. Thanks.

Skep wrote:
"The translation and multi-step proofreading of the Massei report are done. All we have to do is put it all in a master document "

If possible with the same (or close) page numbering as the original

For reference:
The writing on the wall and the handbag

Michael wrote: "Yet a hand print is not the letters 'AF' and neither does it look anything like them." The first two lines are connected by a week horizontal line at the bottom. Rudy may have seen that image in the media and invented the AF cover story. The invention of this absurd story s...

Michael wrote: "And still you fail to explain the miraculous absence of blood from the INSIDE of the purse." I answered it, with the use of a towel. But let's clear it up there may be a misunderstanding: purse for you means the handbag or some kind of wallet which may have been in the hand...

"How much earlier do you mean?"

Hours earlier. Probably when it was still dark.
And I don't think she went twice.

stilicho wrote:
"The woman who remembers precisely how she hopped and skipped on the bloody bathmat cannot remember whether she checked to see if her money was still there"

Yes, you are right, it's suspicious.

"Where 'did' she go then?"

If she went anywhere at all at that time.
It may have been invented. She may have been there earlier in the morning. For that we have more evidence.

DJLawless wrote: "your comment about the purse caught my attention. I personally keep my purse zipped at all times no matter where I am including at home." There was a word usage problem here I used the word purse meaning the handbag not a wallet. Surely most people don't let their wallets...

odeed wrote:
"and after that went back to Sollecito to devise another way to get Filomena there."

There is no proof that she went to the cottage shortly before noon, only Amanda's claim (and Raffaele's claim that she said so).

SomeAlibi wrote: "However Amanda is not there. She has left the flat sometime after 8pm and by 20.18.12 when she receives the text from Patrick Lamumba, she is an area covered by cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, whose signal does not reach Raffaele Sollecito’s house.&qu...

"Who says he had no money?" "How was the trip to Milan botched" Well, if ending up in a jail is not a botched trip ... "and what did that 'botching' have to do with money, or the lack of it? " It shows that Rudy was becoming a thief. "Taking some change from a box ...

Michael wrote: "Except he didn't remove it from his fingers, the blood is ON THE PURSE." Some of the blood I wrote. "Neither actually, has the print on the wall been ascribed to him, it couldn't be identified, it could have come from any one of them." And still was Rudy who admit...

Michael wrote: "Hardly, the physical evidence proves he DIDN'T take it. He had blood all over his hands, yet there was zero blood on the zip of the purse or inside it. How'd he manage that magical feat...did he use tweezers?" Look at the three bloody lines on the wall (the "AF writing...

SomeAlibi wrote:
"But why did they leave Raffaele's? Why was Rudy in the flat with them?"

These are the million dollar questions.
Since almost the beginning.

Michael wrote:
"Amanda and Raffaele were also there when the money was taken, so what's your point?"

Not necessarily.
Even by his own tale Rudy was the last to leave the cottage (at least temporarily).

Michael wrote: 'What' points to him? Why did he have more of a motive then Amanda and Raffaele?" Simply because Rudy had no money. The botched trip to Milan also supports this. He even stole the change from a box in the kindergarten. The fact that he was the first to talk about the missing mone...

SomeAlibi wrote:
" To me, the need to take the money from Meredith points to a need for it that night. "

If the motive is need then Rudy is a much more likely taker.
Almost everything points to him. The very minimum is that he was there when the money was taken.

Catnip wrote: "The Supreme Court of Cassation in April 2008 " The corresponding sentence: "- arbitraria traslazione sul S. degli indizi gravanti sulla K., sull’indebito presupposto che i due non potessero non trovarsi insieme al momento del fatto omicidiale;" Frank translated it ...

Imperfect memories ... Allert Janssen of Assendelft being called, has been examined, free and unbound, in what manner would they have mastered the ship Batavia, and who had put them up to that? He answered, that he did not know about it, but he had heard it said on land, by Jeronimus, that they want...

Katody wrote: "What is that leads to conclusion they lied instead of e.g. having imperfect memory of the events?" Well, you may have imperfect memory, imperfect DNA labs, imperfect translators, imperfect witnesses, imperfect co-defendants, imperfect prosecutors, imperfect judges, etc. ... ...

Katody wrote:
"I don't support that argument."

Hey, it was about the groupies.

Michael wrote: "They'd arranged to meet up because Meredith had borrowed Sophie's book (required reading for the coursework), as an exam was coming up. But, Sophie needed it too since she was doing the same course and so it had been lent to Meredith for that evening on the proviso she return it...

stilicho wrote: "'some of these people, including Charlie, very likely have access to complete and unedited documentation." Sure. "If they post redacted, altered, or edited documents then they're actually doing worse than the "sloppy" media is." It depends on what chang...

Katody wrote:
"The lone-wolf scenario is nothing new, is frugal with presumptions and still fits the facts IMO."

Would you expand it?

Katody wrote: " the most obvious scenario is that Rudy was on a toilet when she entered the house " What is the full scenario? Rudy was walking the streets when he suddenly had to relieve himself and as no public toilet was nearby he broke into the cottage through the window and rushed to ...

"What is the source of that document?" I downloaded a copy of the same file about a week ago. That link was by Charlie Wilkes. So it is clearly from the Amanda defence circles. (Not that I have problem with that, I'm a document freak, even an unreliable document is usually better than spec...

"Judge Claudia Matteini won't be a lenient as Judge Massei."

Matteini is only the preliminary judge in that case. (Like Micheli was in the main case)

If their convictions get overturned.

"for cooking the books."

Not so fast. He only gave them to a dead man.

Re Renzi "It seems he provided some sort of (unspecified) advisory consultancy service in the Meredith Kercher case." He was an intercept master. He worked for various investigators and now his arrest was ordered by a prosecutor for whom he had worked in some cases. "Il titolare di un...

"But she won't go home 'now'." Yes, but we are talking about the post-jail period and my point is that once in the US she will surely challenge in a US court all Italian claims (compensation, future income related to the case, etc.) and for the same reasons that she would not be extradite...

Jools, it was a great idea to track down these Supreme Court decisions. Thanks

"So if AK and RS never confess then what is stopping RG from confessing completely? They would not be able to make any counter claims without implicating themselves."

He is surely involved more than his cockamamie story implies so he couldn't gain anything by that.

"That would be a little more difficult to achieve."

I'm afraid not.
Do you think if she went home now somehow she would then be extradited? No way.

"she'll have Anne Bremner Challenging the Son of Sam law in Washington state on her behalf so she can make said pot of gold."

They don't have to challenge the law.
It is enough if a US judge proclaims her innocent and throws out all Italian claims.

"at one stage Raff blamed Amanda, Amanda thoght of a scenario involving Raff, Amanda blamed Patrick, and yet at no stage did they bring up Rudi's name" They brought up mostly crap about the evening and night. Remember, Raffaele to this day maintains a lie that they were walking around in t...

"What would his motive have been to specifically name Amanda and Raff? At no time did they implicate him. Which is interesting. "

How could they have done that without implicating themselves?

"bank account that 'matures in 16 years."

Forget the 16 years. Rudy will serve half of it and 3 years of that have already passed, so he will be out in 5 years.
Which is a shame. It shouldn't have been allowed to separate his case from the others.

" I don't think she CAN EVER confess, and here's why, imo. Too much to lose.....family, *supporters* and being a psycopath, she has become the victim...in her mind. The lie is easier for her, than dealing with the truth. Everything about her is a lie. I still think, it would be Raff. That is, ...

Lindsay Lohan's three month sentence is getting shorter and shorter by the hour as it has now emerged the jailbird could be out in just eleven days. The troubled actress could be free within the next 11 days – despite only beginning a 90-day jail term on Tuesday for breaking her probation order. Sh...

"I mean some form of confirmation that the pillow print you posted from Frank's is the contested print rather then the print all agree is Rudy's."

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/ ... e-and.html

"Can you show that?" Vinci's presentation page 34: According to Rinaldi there is no analogy with the shoe, according to Vinci there is a clear match with a part of the shoe. "i risultati delle nostre indagini portano a discordare con le conclusioni dei C.T. Rinaldi e Boemia, in quanto...

"The photo from Franks is, I believe, of the print on the pillow all parties agree to be Rudy's. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong about that."

Not, it is the contested one.

" BTW on JREF they are saying that it is not true that RS ever stated that AK ever left his apartment, ever stated it and is standing by that " Raffaele's versions: Nov 2 questioning (as reviewed by judge Claudia Matteini): (Amanda said that at around 17:00 they went to Raffaele's place an...

Re Bomb threat Massei says that the bomb threat happened at around 22:00 Nov 1. The police went there to investigate and found nothing. The first phone was found at around 9:00 Nov 2. "Era dunque accaduto che la sera dell'I.11.2007 verso le ore 22,00 una persona aveva avvertito Lana Elisabetta ...

Two more pictures from street:

"Does anyone know what parts of the cottage and the yard you can see from the top of the drive where is merges with the road? Can't you see the top of the drive from Amanda's window?"

"The postals arrived at the cottage after driving around/past the cottage how many times? It's not hard to believe that Amanda/Raffaele saw this and panicked, making the calls to 112." It is hard to believe, because the postals came in plain clothes and in a car without any visible mark in...

Re Papa calls

Don't forget that his father called Raffaele at 12:40, too (duration 67 seconds). At that time they were undisputedly at the cottage and were in knowledge of the burglary so Raffaele surely talked about it. Maybe his father then called Vanessa before Raffaele called her.

"Again that one is still open to much debate."

Maybe. But with the same conclusion.

"They had plenty of time at the first appearance of the postals to do all the frantic phoning they needed to."

No. Now the postals came (at about 12:58) after all the phone calls had been made. The police and prosecution screwed this up.

" if they hadn't called how would it have played out do you think?"

They (all six of them) soon would have broken down the door.

"So I think the police would maybe have investigated a burglary and gone away without opening Meredith's door. What then?" No way. The carabinieri don't investigate a burglary without looking into a closed room with the tenant missing and not answering phones while there are blood stains i...

"Uh oh see that brings up the call to the carabinieri - would they have made that?"

The defence's argument has convinced me that they had called the carabinieri before the postals arrived. So again it does not depend on finding the phones, they made that.

"what if the cellphones hadn't been found so quickly? ... Would Filomena have been the one to come home to discover the condition of the house then?" No. Filomena and her friends were on the way to the house regardless of the phones and the postals. Amanda and Raffaele were there and had c...

"it was odd to see all of Meredith's shoes in the Charlie's presentation." If you mean page 43 I don't think that they are Meredith's shoes. They are various man's and woman's shoes showing the point of Vinci that the left and right sides of the sole of any shoe (at the narrowest region) a...

I was waiting for Katody to show something ...

"Shoe prints
and
More prints"

These pictures are all taken from the trial presentation of Sollecito expert Francesco Vinci.

Charlie put on the whole presentation in May at FOA : www.friendsofamanda.org/vinci.pdf

"The shoe prints do not look the same to me"

The shoe in your attachment is Sollecito's shoe, not Rudy's.

" Her visit to the Questura on the night of 5 Nov was voluntary and of her own volition as per her court testimony. Had she not chosen to accompany RS to the Questura on the pm of 5 Nov " I'm not quite sure that it was voluntary. Raffaele was called in and Amanda had nowhere to go. One cou...

Thoughtful, Michael was indeed paranoid and unreasonable at that time. He said what he said but he did not restrain you in posting. Get over it.

"Ok, let's set apart the pillow footprint of Amanda, on which we apparently don't have anything concrete to debate."


So you don't have anything concrete?
But you claimed that it was Rudy's shoeprint.

Katody wrote: "Since Amanda's and Meredith's mixed DNA was brought up recently:" What indeed has been brought up recently was a claim by someone using the name Katody that the cushion shoeprint is the same as Rudy's shoeprint. :D You ducked requests to show the picture of Rudy's shoeprint....

Chris C wrote: "Amanda Knox was never in that room that night. There was alteast 6 different DNA profiles in that room. There was semen and hair samples that where never tested. However all that evidence they collected in the room and not 1 dna signature from Knox. 0 positive results for knox....

Chris C wrote: "Rudy brought up robbery as a motive during his skype conversation. He also mentioned he knew where Meredith kept the money. Rudy took the money. So therefore Rudy was the robber. " That is one thing which I agree with. Rudy's tale about the money is ridiculous. I also thin...

Katody wrote:
"I'm sure there are some on this board who have."

Maybe. But you have it right now as you have just compared it with the cushion print.

Why don't you share it?

Katody wrote:
"It doesn't look similar to Rudy's shoeprints for you?"

Unfortunately we haven't seen Rudy's shoeprint.

You seem to have first hand access to the real one.
Please don't torture us and show it.

"In the appeal, we will not hear anyone get up in court and argue that this was a lone wolf killing." It was a three-wolf killing even by the appeals. :D According to Luciano Aviello his brother Antonio Aviello and an albanian friend of his were there and killed the victim and were surpris...

Katody wrote:
"Sorry, but looking at the shoe pattern this is Rudy's footprint."

Please put in the photo of Rudy's shoeprint with wich you have just compared this cushion shoeprint.

Michael wrote: "As far as we know, no police forensic photographs of the footprint on the pillow have been publicly released." Frank did publish a photo of the cushion footprint during the trial (I saved it on July 11, 2009). http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image.p...

"You mean the original PDFs, don't you?"

The Italian versions seem to be original PDFs though it is not 100 percent sure that they were the finals.

"It's been two hours now and I still haven't seen any links to any official (defence) appeals documents"

They have been uploaded somewhere on this forum, too:

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=245

Katody wrote:
"I'm from Europe, but English is not native to me, so please be easy on me regarding my language."

also wrote:
"You guys barraged me with questions"

Hmm...
This "you guys" sounds quite native and quite American.

Michael wrote: "The Knox family pay an extraordinary amount of money to Marriott for PR...so, how does one measure the receipt of product in return?" It's a future investment, I think. As things are now Amanda will be out in 10 years and they don't want her to live as a murderer. Rather, s...

Yummi wrote: "The signal from four cell tower reach Raffaele's apartment, one of them very good (tower location named (?) I don't remember ! ). All Raffaele's calls appear to be logged on this tower. There are also other 3 towers that reach the place, but their signal is weaker." Berardi-S...

Michael wrote: "Therefore...it is most dangerous to think...'Ah, I've found the paragraph where he deals with 'X' and that constitutes his definitive evidence/reasoning/judgement on it'. " Sure. But regardless of the correct way of reading Massei: - Either Acquedotto sector 3 is never usab...

Jools wrote:
"experts took measurements and deemed that, that tower reaches RS's house *location* i.e. area by the front door or even outside his house in Corso Garibaldi but not inside his flat"

I may have overlooked it, but I don't find such a claim in Massei.
Where is it?

On the 20:18 cell phone location. This evidence emerged late in the trial and I was wondering why. It should be a very important argument because it places Amanda out of Raffaele's house at that time..I was thinking how was it that it had not been used before? I read what Massei writes about it when...

nicki wrote: " Mrs Van der Sloot's statements about her son .. set a true example of responsible and civilized behavior, how different from that of the Knox family" I put it in as a contrast, but to be frank, it is "easier", inasmuch as Van der Sloot's guilt was much clearer from...

Van der Sloot's mother (in Dutch with Spanish narration and subtitles):

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avqprMvj73w
Part2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKdXpYWL ... re=related

"Until I can't find the origin of my previous belief" I have found it, that was it: Frank Feb 3: "I didn't sue anyone, Mignini says in his office. But the indiscretion I just received is clear: an investigation for defamation is running against Amanda Knox's lawyer Luciano Ghirga, Raf...

"I'm not sure I understand you post. But do you mean that from UJ article defence lawyers are also accused? The two lawyers Ghirga and Del Grosso in court today are there to defend/represent their defendants Edda Mellas and Curt Knox, they [lawyers] are not themselves accused." You are rig...

undecided wrote: " On the one hand, I can see their argument-- It's tiring to spend time at a police station (even if you're not being questioned)." On the one hand, the first day does not count as they must have been extremely fit on that day having spent the previous night in unconscious...

"Lack of notification for whom?"

The article says that Edda was there, so it is probably Curt.

thoughtful wrote:
"Well, it is an established fact that Meredith's phone pinged at 00:10 in the area of the garden, and there was no call to or from the phone registered at that time"

How is the incoming call excluded? Massei refers to it as "the first call" of that day.

"can you say what information we have and it's limitations and what 'myths' need debunking from what has been said about the location of her 2 phones?" I agree with Massei's conclusion. At 22:13 the English phone was most probably in or around the cottage and at 0:10 it was already moved i...

Some of the myths that have come up in the discussions about mobile phone operation. (To keep it simple I use the comnon word "tower" instead of the correct Base Transceiver Station - BTS the basic centre of the cell, of which more than one can be mounted on a physical tower) Myth #1: &quo...

Tacopina still goes to Peru this week to defend Van der Sloot.
He has concluded that an unknown third man must have been the killer of Stephanie.

The Machine wrote:
"Wouldn't there be a record of any calls or messages to Meredith's English mobile phone?"

Sure there would be. I wrote: "Someone calls it or sends a message"

"what are possible things that could cause a phone lying in someone's garden to ping?" Someone calls it or sends a message or the phone itself, if capable, is set by the user to some kind of automatic call. There is a so called Periodic Location Update (prescribed by the current network wh...